#121 Bold Move: Airbnb's Shift Away from Product Managers
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In this episode, Alex and Christian bring you an insightful discussion about a hot topic in the industry. They dive into the recent announcement by the CEO of Airbnb, who boldly stated that the company is moving away from product managers. They explore the implications of this decision and its potential impact on the role of product management. They also share their thoughts on the evolving nature of the product manager role and how organizations can optimize their workforce for efficient product development. Join us as we unpack the CEO's vision for a more design-driven company and the possible implications for the future of product management. Stay tuned for a thought-provoking conversation addressing product managers' role and relevance in today's ever-changing landscape.
What we've covered:
01:56-Apple worked without product managers, interesting discussion.
05:26-Engineering manager enables on-time delivery, overlaps determine role necessity - Apple example.
08:16-Designers and CPMs should work together effectively.
11:44-One person can cover the process, but experts validate.
Meeting Notes (transcription)
Christian:
Hello, everybody. So this time you see us, in case you're watching on YouTube, a different setup that we are approaching since we are both in Berlin today and doing a recording in person for you today.
Alex:
Yeah, it's special. I mean, we're still not as professional when it comes to the setup. I hope it works well with the single microphone, but it's a different way.
Christian:
To record standing here at the standing desk.
Alex:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But let's keep it short and sweet, as we usually tend to do today. I have a slightly interesting topic without preparation for you. I think for everyone who's around or has been on the social media accounts, after the announcement or after the figma config, there was a very hot topic that has been discussed. You might be aware as a non designer, but the CEO of Airbnb, and we have our dog barking in the background. My dog, the CEO of Airbnb, made a pretty bold statement on stage saying that Airbnb is moving away from product managers.
Christian:
Oh, yeah.
Alex:
I wanted to hear opinions. I wanted to hear reactions, just to also give a little bit more context. I feel like it's a quite interesting fact that he's actually the only Fortune 500 CEO who is a designer. Right. So I think that already sets a bit the stage. And I think also what he said was mean. He wants the company to be design.
Christian:
Driven as it used to be. Right?
Alex:
Yes. He also mentioned, or he referred to Apple, who also worked without product managers in a slightly different and adjusted setting where it was more product marketing. For everyone who's curious to learn about product marketing, we will also link the product marketing episode because we had a very interesting interview in the past. But, yeah, I felt like even if it's slightly late, because it's a couple of weeks ago that this made the news, it's still interesting because we also had the discussion of AI and what AI does to the product manager world. So, yeah, I leave you with that. I'm curious to hear what you think.
Christian:
I mean, there are a couple of questions that are coming to my mind or thoughts regarding this decision. And do you remember in 2018 when we were at the Product Management Festival in Zurich where we were listening to the talk of the I think it was the VP product from a Google Calendar back then told us they approached product management. Gmail. Exactly. Gmail, sorry. And the interesting part was that he told us back then that the whole team structure was for Gmail, 150 engineers divided in five teams. So 30 engineers per team. And guess how many product managers they had or still have.
I don't know the current numbers, but it was for each team, one product manager. And the quote back then was before we hire a new product manager, we see how we can give responsibility to the team. So with that said, I think it's actually a quite interesting way to look at it because from an organizational point of view and also from the working style, they are shifting, I guess, towards much more responsibility towards the teams who are building the products.
Alex:
Yeah, and I think it's the question, right, because there is a lot of overlap between the product manager and different functions and the product manager role. I mean, let's be honest, it's also not something that is the same for every company. It's anyway, a very fluid role. I think probably the tax accountant has a very defined role, right? And it's very similar across all the different organization.
Christian:
Are we reaching the point where he's comparing product managers to text consultants?
Alex:
No, quite the opposite. Quite the opposite. Because I think the point is the PM role is very different across all the different companies. The accountant role probably not so much. Right. Systems differ, whatever. And there is no judgment in this, right? None of it is like, oh, this is better than the other thing. Right.
But I think there is a lot of overlap. The role itself is also quite fluid. So it comes down to the organization and how they work and what functions they have and how they're overall structured and problems they're solving and which industry. Right. But in general, you can say a lot of the things when it comes to organizing the PMS, the engineers, sorry, a lot of PMS also have a role similar to an engineering manager, right?
Christian:
Yes.
Alex:
If you enable the engineering manager, you don't need a product manager to make sure that the engineers deliver on time. If the designers also are enabled and drive the vision from a more user centric perspective, a lot of PMS do that too. Right. So I think it's more around figuring out where the overlaps are and where you actually need a function. And I'm just assuming here that this is also where Apple said, okay, we need actually some for product marketing. When it comes to how our let's talk about iOS, how our operating system works, let's have the designers be the driving force behind the actual interaction. When it comes to the physical products, let's also have the industrial designers be the ones who drive it. Right? Because you don't necessarily need someone in between to do that.
Alex:
Hence reshaping or formulating the role differently to fill in the gaps. And the product marketing, like, what do we need to build, what does the market require, how can we launch it, how do we get it to the people? How do you validating that building the brand and so on. I think that was what worked for them. It might not be the solution for everyone. It might not be what Airbnb needs in this case. But yeah, I thought it's a bold.
Christian:
About we can talk a lot about the roles and all that kind of stuff, but if we go one level up, what's the job of the CEO?
Alex:
I mean, the CEO needs to give direction.
Christian:
Exactly. He needs to give direction. He is formulating the vision. And the job of the CEO is obviously to make the best decisions and the best time for the company and for the people working within Airbnb. So therefore, I would say, considering this that I believe, and I assume actually almost would say, I know that the intentions were definitely towards the best for the company. Which means to make sure that the company stays design driven, right? To make sure that the high standards and the high quality that Airbnb has delivered over the previous years will continue. In that, I mean, we don't know what was happening within Airbnb back then with the role of a product manager. Maybe there were some issues also related to product manager introducing maybe too much bureaucracy, too much processes, or even not.
Or maybe they were missing the design skills. So I can understand that the CEO made this bold movement if it was the best for the company. So I think what many people do and what I used to do when I was very junior was like not understanding these top level decisions. But you also need to respect that. There are definitely some thoughts behind it.
Alex:
And I think fair point, I've seen it a lot. Right? And I mean, that's also why we're doing this podcast together, because the roles are so similar to some extent, right? So I don't think the solution is for every company to only hire designers and forget about CPMs. Quite the opposite. But I also saw in a lot of organizations and in a lot of companies that you have double work there. Right? And I think this is also really where your organizations need to look at how do we really split our capacity and our workforce across the whole product development process, right? Like, what is the individual role of someone? Does it need like two people thinking about similar flow and constantly aligning and maybe having these discussions? Or does it make sense to say, okay, maybe one is going to look at regulations and all the legal aspects while the other person is working on the user flow and then they airline. Right? So I think, ideally, in the triad that we always love to talk about, between the engineering PM and the designer, there is like a really good equilibrium of who does what so that it expands on the other function and so that the collaboration really becomes beneficial. And there is not just like people filling a role for the sake of filling a role and for fitting a standard.
Christian:
Yeah, I think it's also tightly I mean, you're actually, my opinion, touching also the whole point of workflows, right? I mean, who's doing what and how does the day to day business is looking like at Airbnb, for example, if we're talking about do we need two people who take care of, for example, understanding legal stuff behind it or make business decision? I mean, a good designer, in my opinion, should be able to do those as well. Which, I mean, we talked about that the roles are anyway tied together. On the other hand, we could also say if AI gets better and PM can prompt design things not in Airbnb, but generally. Right. I mean, we don't know in which directions will head to, but it does matter. Most important is that you as a company make the right choice. So maybe we will hear another statement in five years saying we don't need designers anymore and the engineers start designing.
Alex:
Probably sooner than five years, considering how fast markets develop and technology. But the conclusion that I would draw is simply that the product roles in general are fluid. Totally. And I think depending on from which perspective you look at it, like also on the individual employee, it just means being open to that fluidity. That's an English word. But to be resilient and to adjust, we're agile with our products. We also need to be agile with our roles. Exactly.
Different skills that we learn. I think it's important to have big diversity of skills in the organization so that you can also build on top of it. I mean, it's the same. I always look at it from content design versus product design and so on. The processes are very similar. The skill sets are very different. They could work on both projects. Ideally, you have a PD and a CD and they can learn from each other.
So at one point you only need like one person because they can cover the process realistically. Right. And then you have the experts that can validate, that, can make sure to proofread or to give feedback so that you can elevate the quality over time. So I think it's more about adjusting, not being stuck to a specific title, changing according to what the company needs, the product needs, the problem space needs. I think it's not the end of any role.
Christian:
Yeah, exactly. It's not the end. But I still believe that especially in these days, being a Generalist is very helpful.
Alex:
Yeah, absolutely. And the same is true for engineers, right? Let's not exclude them.
Christian:
Not at all.
Alex:
With AI, a lot of the repetitive small work could maybe be optimized. Right. And you might rather want to invest in an architect, right, who can it.
Christian:
Also tells you as an engineer that it's time to level up. Right? Because if you're used to doing the repetitive task, it's time to dive deeper, right? The complexity is waiting for you. Like that. We're living in a world where complexity is getting less. Right? I mean, it gets more and it's required to find better solutions to more complex problems.
Alex:
Absolutely. This is the end of product management.
Christian:
Let us know. We're looking forward to hearing back from you.
Alex:
Awesome. Have a nice evening. Bye.
