#123 The Effective vs. the Ineffective CPO
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In today's episode, we dive into the world of Chief Product Officers and explore what sets apart the effective ones from the ineffective ones. Drawing from our recent conversations with CPOs from around the world, we discuss the differences between European and US CPOs, the impact of culture and leadership styles, and the key ingredients for success in this role. So grab your favorite pastry and join us as we uncover the secrets to being a top-notch CPO.
Topics Discussed
(00:02:33) CPO's role in companies and European culture.
(00:06:32) Cultural differences and leadership styles impact teams.
(00:10:09) Trust, autonomy, growth, and teamwork for CPOs.
(00:11:07) Product strategy: problem-solving, profitability, and future positioning.
Meeting Notes (transcription)
Alex:
I mean, yes, of course, there's obviously, different ways to look at what makes a good CPO, right? Or not? Only the CPO. We can probably talk about a lot of executives.
Christian:
You can translate it.
Alex:
Yeah. But let's talk about your perspective when.
Christian:
It comes to effectiveness, I've been recently talking to many CPOs to better understand their challenges. And one question I'd love to ask the CPO, and if you're tuning in today, whether you're a CPO or in any other product leadership role, I think the question that I like asking is what's the difference between an effective and ineffective CPO? And the answers are quite interesting because on one hand, they're all the same, but they're also vary on a wider level.
Alex:
Do you think it depends on how effective or ineffective the actual CPO is?
Christian:
Definitely gave you the answer. Totally. Right.
Alex:
I'm sure you only talk to the best CPOs in the world.
Christian:
Generally. My goal is not to validate those CPOs, to better understand generally what's going on in the world.
Alex:
Right.
Christian:
But I think what is interesting actually is the difference between European CPOs and US. CPOs. I think we can maybe start that.
Alex:
I think the product word is extremely different in the two countries.
Christian:
Totally. I mean, as you know, Product Bakery is based in Berlin, in the heart of Europe, where all the product innovation.
Alex:
Where all the product innovation happens worldwide. Actually, most Unicurrents or Fortune 500 companies are Berlin-based or Berlin-founded. We have a good number of unicurrens, but yeah, totally. Unfortunately, it's late. It's late.
Christian:
It's true. Okay. But I think interestingly is to see something that I have observed is and very important to make a statement here. I cannot generalize what I'm saying, but there's like a kind of pattern, I would say, that is observable that, for example, the CPOs in Europe are still focused on tactical and operational things, while something I've realized is that the US. CPOs are much more focused on strategic topics and driving business impact.
Alex:
Question here. Do you think that has to do entirely with the CPO or general with how companies are run and how companies are being founded? Because while I agree, I think it also has a lot to do with the CEO itself. Totally. Right. I think the European culture might be not as flat potentially, from a collaboration perspective. In the C suite, like, there is a lot of companies where the CEO is just the one who gives the vision, who asks the team or tells the team what to do and that then automatically has the StrickLe down effect of okay, as a CPO, I've been told to build feature XYZ. That's why I fall into the trap of working.
Christian:
Exactly. But I think even from a cultural perspective, I think there it already starts. Right? Let's just look at the educational systems. So, I mean, there's already a big difference. I mean, especially in the US. I don't remember how long it was, but I think a couple of years ago, google was still hiring only MBAs in product positions, right? So, I mean, that's a big difference. If you hire a product person, a potential or an aspiring product person or an experienced one with an MBA and a lot of business background while we have in Europe and mean, as we know, even ourselves, I don't have an MBA. I studied business administration, but I never made the MBA, so I didn't study at all.
You didn't study at all. See what happened to so there it already starts right. For different cultures. And I think also something that is very big to me is when it comes to the cultural point of view, I have the feeling, and that's also a feedback that I've gotten while I was talking to the CPOs is that the networking aspect and the network itself in the US. Is a complete different one than in Europe. So, I mean, you know the stories, right? You're sitting at a party, you're telling someone, hey, I'm planning to build this product, and two people say, hey, I know this guy, I know this guy, you should talk to him or to her, and connections are made up. While I have the feeling, especially as a German in Berlin and I mean, we Germans, we're special, so we don't have friends, we don't laugh, we just work. We don't maintain social interaction.
Alex:
You're the German here, half German like you. So, however, let's not talk about the specifics. But I'm 100% okay, that's also true.
Christian:
Sorry about that. It's almost offensive for me.
Alex:
I made a DNA test recently.
Christian:
That's on my to-do, actually, I want.
Alex:
75% north of it. Like, literally, you can spot my home city. Like my family didn't move too much. I have 1% no, I have 4.5% North Africa, 1% Nigeria and some Asia in there.
Christian:
I have to do this test. $500, right? No, we tested to do with blood and all that.
Alex:
Kind of like we need to beep it here. Is it to not make some advertisements? There is like, goddamn it, I don't remember the name. So we don't get doesn't, but it's like $40.
Christian:
Okay, good.
Alex:
Yeah, you do like a swipe in your mouth.
Christian:
Okay. That way I know only the blood test thing, but no, yeah, that's okay. But this was like a short context. Yeah. So my point is talking about the different styles and types of CPOs and also the effectiveness. I mean, one key aspect to me is that especially looking at the US and also talking to CPOs park leads from the Silicon Valley, is that there is such a big drive on strategical work and driving business impact. I mean, this is what you always see. Business impact is super crucial.
Christian:
While there is still this big challenge of the tactical operational work, empowering engineering teams, building an organization around that whole kind of strategical topic.
Alex:
Now, the one thing that's interesting and that we should look at a little bit closer, I mean, Abe, we already opened with cultural differences, right? I think culture plays a big role. But you just mentioned one thing, right? Like building the organization, enabling and empowering the organization. I think there is also a big difference when it comes to overall leadership style. And I think this also has a big impact because I feel like if you look at the feedback culture, if you look at communication styles and so, like, America has a very direct approach to feedback. And I think this really changes a lot based on the cultures and also if teams have multiple different cultures in there. But the leadership is also extremely important when you work with a team. And if you have good leadership, it will be easier for you to empower the team and to enable the team and to generally build and grow the team to work on these more tactical and operational tasks so that you have more time to work on the strategic and visionary aspect.
Christian:
I think if you take the leadership part, I think one key ingredient to add is the strategic background, right? I mean, if you have a clear strategy in place and you approach a very direction giving leadership style right. I believe also a lot of things will fall in place automatically that you have to struggle with if the strategic direction is not clear, because then you have to go much more into tactical, operational things, which is, in my opinion, very easy to describe with the word firefighting.
Alex:
Oh, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of firefighting, but it's like you need your team. Your team needs to free your back also to some extent, to work like, to really work in the direct, your team needs to give you input also on exactly things, right? You need to have this bottom up and top down, direction giving and taking everything into consideration. But, yeah, the team itself plays a massive role. And that's a direct reflection also of the leadership style, of your knowledge of all these sort of things.
Christian:
And one thing that I was also hearing from a couple of CPOs in Europe, actually, which I really like, was that an effective CPO knows the team personally, trusts the team, gives guidance, while an ineffective CPO wants to be involved in every decision and micromanage the people. I mean, for sure, we know these are basic leadership things we're discussing right now, but still, we still see you and I have seen a couple of companies these days, and we see it still happening. So it's not like conspiracy.
Alex:
And this is real also to be real here, right. I've also been in situations where I felt that I need to step in and I need to micromanagement. Right. And this comes back down to, okay, when I'm in that position, what can I do to help my team get to a point where I trust them? Trust is something that needs to be built, right? It's not just, oh, you want to be an effective leader, just trust your team.
Christian:
Yeah, that doesn't work.
Alex:
And give them complete autonomy because that can go in the completely wrong direction. But yeah, if you're there, you need to find out how to grow them and to also work with them so that they understand what you need to trust them so that over time you can grow that, right? So I think generally, every company that hires a new CPO, you cannot hire an effective CPO and then he comes in and everything runs smooth from the first day. The trust needs to be built. The team needs to be developed.
Christian:
The vision needs to be developed.
Alex:
Vision needs to be developed, the processes need to be developed. And in order to do that, you need to first observe and understand and do your research so you can slowly build out the right structures.
Christian:
And I mean, the question is also why are we having this discussion? What are the takeaways, right, for people who are tuning in? And I think again, let's put the GPO title aside for a minute. The question is always, and I think it's something that we regularly talking about, is as a product person, you're solving problems, right? So there are people out there who have problems and you believe that you have a way to make their lives better. So how do you approach that? So what is the strategy behind it? And I mean, we are all not doing things for free. I mean, there's a business behind it. We want to be profitable. So we need also to combine this problem solving aspect with the business mindset and see where we will be and how we want to be in the future and how we want to position ourselves in the future. And I think it's a very, very important step to start with. I mean, this is why we have product discovery, right? You need to find product market Fit.
Christian:
And with a good product market Fit, you can move on. And with a good product market Fit, you are able to derive a good strategy. And if you are stuck in too much tactical operational work, it's recommended. And this is the hardest part in my opinion. So you have a team, you have to do a lot of firefighting and you're maybe not trusting them, you maybe need to jump into give guidance and directions, but not because you're not trusting I mean, you're not trusting them actually. But you have a lot of operational work on your plate and at the same time, there is much more strategic direction needed. So it sounds like a kind of devil loot, but the only way to get out of it is to go the extra mile. Yes.
Alex:
And like everything in product prioritization, right? Like there might be times where you just deprioritize the operational work because you need to focus on the team and even the strategy.
Christian:
And even though if you know that the shit will hit the fan let it hit. Exactly. Let it hit. It's sometimes a much better investment than continuing driving into the wrong direction with no strategy. Prioritization is such an important and we also have this podcast episode about the one thing right, the great books that you should can read if you want to better prioritize and not lose focus.
Alex:
You will find it in the resources of this podcast as usual. And we also have a couple of conversations with CPOs lined up so you will see some of them here and there in the next couple of months.
Christian:
See or hear or you here.
Alex:
Make sure to press the follow button. Subscribe and see you soon. Bye.
